lpetersson

Actually, I disagree.
Most people disagree with me when it comes to the subject of crime and punishment so you're in good company :-)

Even criminals are human, and even they have human rights.
And that's the basic disagreement I have with most people, because I think that the very moment someone commits a crime which would land them in jail, they effectively hand in their membership card which gives them access to call themselves 'human beings'...
And as such they don't deserve to be treated as human beings and they don't deserve to have human rights.

As I said, most people disagree with me on this...

From:

nibber.livejournal.com

Most, not all... :)

From:

Indeed :-D

From:

afraid i'm with lars on this one completely, I've seen animals that have more decorum than most criminals in jail and they should be treated as less than animals at that.

From:

innerbrat

Yeah, I'm not surprised. Especialy considering the type of crimes that carry a jail sentence these days. And that's just in this country.

Seriously. I consider that barbaric.

From:

redcountess

Yeah, the lack of respect thing is a bit silly, but they do have the right to decent conditions, and safety, and not be *abused* by staff, especially if you believe prisons should try to rehabilitate, which I do.

From:

especially if you believe prisons should try to rehabilitate

And certainly it's a noble cause, but sadly it's also one that's clearly ineffective and merely let criminals see that they can re-offend with impunity...
You may also want to see my comment to

failing_angel further down...

From:

nibber.livejournal.com

bring back public hangings and charge the audience entrance fees. Use the revenue to improve the quality of prison buildings. Make the prisoners do the work themselves and once they've finished make them work 12 hour days in the Quarry.

Hard labour gives a man time to reflect and rehabilitate in the time honoured fashion of crushing spirit and personality.

DON'T BE A CRIMINAL. ITS NOT DIFFICULT.

From:

*pint* to you good man...

From:

nibber.livejournal.com

excellent :)

From:

feuermaus.livejournal.com

Precisely! If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. While I don't think they deserve being abused per se, I don't think they deserve any level of respect - especially not rapists or murderers. But then, me, I;d bring back the death penalty if I could...

From:

But then, me, I;d bring back the death penalty if I could...

Although I certainly understand that mentality, I think it's wasteful.
As you can see from my other comments...

From:

warlockuk.livejournal.com

They'll treat prisoners with respect if they don't act like cocks. The stats are meaningless - it could reflect that 57% of inmates are dickheads as opposed to a previous 36%.

They're more likely to say they've been mistreated too, to get one back on the screws.

As for rats/cockroaches... fuck 'em. :)

From:

That's a very fair and probably very accurate look at those stats...

From:

Prison isn't meant to be a holiday camp, it's meant to be a place you'd rather not be...
That's quite surprising, considering Denmark is supposed to have a very good, liberal rehabilitation philosophy with its prison system. And consequently a better crime rate than us.

So, you view prison as a deterrant - why?

From:

And consequently a better crime rate than us

Ahh, actually it's kind of the other way around.
We have a lower crime rate and thus don't have to waste as much money (Proportionately speaking) on fine luxury prisons.

To the best of my knowledge, in Denmark most criminals re-offend, just like the rest of the world.
I think this country is too soft on criminals and DK is even worse.
We should encourage and emulate countries that take a progressive stance towards making criminals useful in society again (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2006/07/06/1671272-cp.html)...

Rehabilitation is a liberal pipe-dream which the 80%-85% reoffending rate for most types of theft, in my personal opinion, firmly buries...
It's not so much that I view prison as adeterrant, I see it as a place where criminals go to learn that crime does indeed not pay...

From:

I can't easily quote comparative stats for UK & Denmark, but I was watching a piece on Newsnight a few weeks ago, it was examining the Danish penal system - re-offending rates are much better (ie lower) in Denmark than in the UK. There's a proper system for treating drug addicts, and again, its success rate is much better than ours.

Then again, by just looking at prisons you're ignoring the much bigger picture - why is there crime in the first place?
I'm not suggesting that there exists a panacea to prevent anything illegal occurring, of course not. However, you quote 80-85% reoffending rates for theft - could this be, perchance, to feed a drug habit? Or because someone lives below the poverty line and is trying to get that little extra to make ends meet? Or alternatively because there's no hope of progression in society, so no employment to get an income and therefore this is the best entertainment?

It's not so much that I view prison as adeterrant, I see it as a place where criminals go to learn that crime does indeed not pay...
Oh whoop-de-wooo - 6 months at society's expense only to come out and pick up where you left off.

Simple fact - for a good couple of hundred years execution by death was a common punishment for quite a few offences (including basic theft); its impact on the criminal fraternity - effectively none - where one thief had gone, another took their place.
Incarceration - well, the Victorians developed various prisons, some actually did dehumanise their charges - end result - null gain.
Banging someone up for a few months/years merely removes them from general society and forces us to pay for their upkeep - so in effect it still costs us, just indirectly as opposed to being robbed.
But if imprisoned, how are criminals going to learn that crime doesn't pay? A short while kept from liberty - well, that's just an occupational hazard isn't it?
What then?

Prison needs to be more than a glorified holding cell - if you make it too inhumane then the impact will be felt with the initial crime. To quote a British saying - may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.

I hate to quote the lying, scheming double-dealing scum-bag, but Bliar did have a good idea (before he caved in and u-turned on it) - Tough on Crime (meh, so-so as an idea), Tough on the Causes of Crime - now we're talking. Prevention is infinitely better than cure, and that's the path we need to follow.

From:

warlockuk.livejournal.com

To quote a British saying - may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.
That just reminds me of the Macc Lads' "No sheep 'til Buxton" :)

From:

I can't easily quote comparative stats for UK & Denmark
That's ok, neither can I...

why is there crime in the first place?
Because some people believe they're entitled to that which they have not earned? That just happened to be the first thing to pop into my mind...

to feed a drug habit?
So it's ok to steal if you have a drug habit?

Or because someone lives below the poverty line and is trying to get that little extra to make ends meet?
They could get a job...
Just a thought, but then again I believe that if your ends don't meet

because there's no hope of progression in society
Of course there's no hope of progression if you give up, and if these people want to be on the dole or do menial labour for the rest of their lives that's their choice and if they feel that they are entitled to more then they should go and earn it not steal it...

therefore this is the best entertainment?
Crime is rime regardsless of the reason behind the crime...

6 months at society's expense only to come out and pick up where you left off.
In my opinion it should be 'The rest of their short and unpleasant life in a testing facility...
Unless it's someone witha rare blood-type or some such in which case they would have 'donor' written all over them so society can benefit whena law abiding citizen needs a new organ.

So there would be no picking up where they left off...

execution by death was a common punishment
I am vehemently against capital punishment like that. It's a waste of perfectly good resources... :->

where one thief had gone, another took their place
end result - null gain
forces us to pay for their upkeep
A short while kept from liberty - well, that's just an occupational hazard isn't it?
I almost feel as if you're making my argument for me, thanks...
Those four are excellent reasons why my plan is so perfect.
Each criminal that takes the place of another becomes a resource for society, so we all gain as a whole. There will be little upkeep as my utopian dream involves the big pharmaceutical companies paying for the prisoners so they have test subjects always available and ready.
And since it clearly won't be a short while it becomes a career stopper rather than just an occupational hazard...

Yes, prevention is naturally best, but it will never happen in a democracy...

From:

Yeah, thank you for following the Tory path and immediately seizing on one facet of the response, whilst ignoring the argument it ties in with.

So, if faced with the option starve or steal, you'll happily lie there knowing that you're morally right.

What I see as the flaws in your argument:
You are ignoring the basic causal issues behind why there is such a high-level of crime and repeat offences.

You are lumping everything together - you talk about criminals as one single group. But that means that someone travelling a little over the limit is being lumped in with the worst serial killer.

Summary justice does not work - it may remove existing criminals, but doesn't prevent any repeats of the crime.

Yes, prevention is naturally best, but it will never happen in a democracy...
So what would you suggest - imagine you're the absolute ruler, your word is law etc, etc.
How would you prevent crime?

From:

So, if faced with the option starve or steal, you'll happily lie there knowing that you're morally right
No, when I was in that situation (And I have been, it wasn't nice) I did something about it which did not involve crime because I made that choice.
A choice which is freely available to everyone.

You are lumping everything together
Actually I'm thinking purely of criminals who commit crimes which would send them to prison. Minor offences which only warrants a fine should still have that sentence.

Summary justice does not work
And the current system does?
I think it's safe to say that the current system is horrifically flawed with hardened criminals getting what amounts to a slap on the wrist and being told 'Don't do that again you naughty boy' and then being let loose to do it all over again at a terrible cost to society.

So what would you suggest
I don't see anything inherently wrong with fascism or an absolute ruler.
Democracy provides us with a bunch of politicians who from the moment they get into office start worrying about whether they have enough money to be re-elected rather than worrying about whether they're doing what's best for the country and it's citizens.
And heavens forbid something comes along which require some knee-jerk reaction which means they have to come up with some new law to appease the chattering classes.
And come election time, the existing government loose and is replaced by one which decide it has to do everything different and spend a lot of time and effort destroying what has been built before whether it worked or not.
Admittedly, Blair continued in a Thatcherian way, but not as strongly as she would have wanted him to.

Personally I propose a state where we have either governments that are elected for 10-15 years at a time so they have they time an mandate to carry through with their projects or an absolute ruler...

I then propose a tagging system whereby everyone get an implant so they can be tracked at all times. All information about where everyone has ever been would then be kept in the Central Police Authoritys datacentre so that when a crime has been committed it would be quick to see who was nearby at any given time.
I also believe all urban areas should have unobtrusive(sp?) surveillance 24/7 and be watched in a number of central locations with the operators able to send out special rapid-response units to catch any criminals that have been spotted.
We should also remove the silly laws which prevent the police from doing their jobs properly.

From:

the-elephant.livejournal.com

Re: this tagging system...

How do you propose to prevent abuses of power by the people monitoring the tracking implants? Reports on abuses of power run rampant in the news, and this type of tracking system increases the power of the establishment by an order of magnitude - perhaps several. That worries me - the people in charge are definitely NOT motivated by concern for my welfare!

From:

when I was in that situation
Okay, well at this point you are one up on me in that I've been lucky enough not to be there.
However, when you say you were in that situation - you grew up in an area where there was no employment as the major employer(s) had collapsed, there was no hope, no real education provision, etc, etc?
I appreciate this isn't the blanket situation, but it has been a severe problem. Before we start cracking down on all criminals like you're proposing, why don't we actually try and ensure that we have a society that doesn't exclude people.

I'm thinking purely of criminals who commit crimes which would send them to prison. Minor offences which only warrants a fine should still have that sentence.
But even so, refusing to pay a fine can result in imprisonment, speeding can result in imprisonment, the list goes on.

I think it's safe to say that the current system is horrifically flawed with hardened criminals
Is that the target of your posts?
Because there's a big difference between hardened crims, and petty ones.

Personally I propose a state where we have either governments that are elected for 10-15 years at a time so they have they time an mandate to carry through with their projects or an absolute ruler...
And as Thatcher and Bliar have demonstrated, that's such an effective system.

I then propose a tagging system whereby everyone get an implant so they can be tracked at all times.....etc
Really!
And to make things easier, lets dispense with names, after all, personal identities just create individualism, and that's too problematic for any totalitarian system.
How about a curfew, or better yet, complete lockdown - no-one allowed out unless they have appropriate permissions.

Your ideas are perfect if you wish people to bend to the state.
Unfortunately the state should be an extension of society, not the other way around.

From:

etc, etc?
Actually this was after I had moved to England and everything was collapsing around me and I didn't have a social security net like the one in DK.
Having a society that doesn't exclude people is a wonderful idea, but in my eyes, criminals have chosen to marginalise themselves by committing crimes.
They had the choice not to do it, but they decided otherwise...

But even so, refusing to pay a fine can result in imprisonment, speeding can result in imprisonment, the list goes on.
Choice again. I choose not to pay a fine and I suffer the consequences...
If I drive fast enough I might go to jail. I chose to drive to fast and I suffer the consequnces. Hopefully before someone else does (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4903902.stm)...
Choice and the consequences of those choices...
I choose to cheat and get dumped
I choose to not pay my mortgage and loose my house
I choose to not go to work and get sacked
I choose to commit crime and suffer the consequences...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just dawned on me that you are advocating a society where people don't have to worry about the consequences of their actions...

Is that the target of your posts?
My primary target are the criminals who commit a crime which sends them to jail...

And as Thatcher and Bliar have demonstrated, that's such an effective system
They got re-elected...
They still had to worry about that re-election and that held them back.
My view on Thatcher is quite ambivalent, I think that she either should never have been given power or she didn't go far enough. Blair is just a populist joke.
Neither of them fall within what I proposed as a government.

Really!
Yes, really.
And as hard as I try, I can't see anything in my last post which proposed that kind of dystopian regime, but perhaps you could point it out to me?
I'm proposing a utopian future where everyone can be safe, secure and free to do what they want as long as they don't harm others.
But then again, I'm a positive minded happy person...

Your ideas are perfect if you wish people to bend to the state.
Actually my ideas are perfect when you have a vision and that vision is a society free of illness, disease, poverty, crime and pollution...
My vision is a utopia.

From:

The downside of this dialogue is that I'm not in a position where I can sit in peace and devote enough time to develop an indepth argument.

However, to clarify: I don't advocate relinquishing responsibility of consequences - but equally I don't view things in black and white.
Someone breaks the law - why did they break the law?
There's no use in simply having a response of simply punishing people - that's merely treating the symptoms and not the societal disease.

Someone's found guilty and imprisoned, great. So we just punish them and that's it? Doesn't work.
Why not take the time to try and rehabilitate them?

Enough of this organ harvesting kick - at what point do you apply that to? Anyone who goes to prison? What about manslaughter cases? What happens if the evidence is found to be flawed - yes, it's the age-old argument against Capital Punishment, but it has a strong validity.

If you want more organs available, make it the default option - you die, your organs are harvested. If you don't want this, opt out.

You may see your vision as a utopia, but it certainly isn't one that I would want to be in.
But since we don't live in your vision, but do have poverty, pollution, illness, etc, let's figure out how to sort out our current problems.

From:

fishdry.livejournal.com

Yes, prevention is naturally best, but it will never happen in a democracy...

100% employment ( and it is possible )

From:

but it will never happen in a democracy
Well you say that, but;

a) Show me a democracy first, otherwise it's like saying that Communism doesn't work - we've yet to have a model where it occurs.

b) Where will it happen? Ain't going to be a totalitarian state.

From:

fishdry.livejournal.com

Democracy and Communism are just ideologies and we can't forget human aspect and improvements from human race. Usualy failing and turning into something like pragmatism ;)))

From:

littlemsmortis.livejournal.com

People's rants are the best things on LJ!....I really like that icon, I meant to ask you before if I could pinch it?

From:

Go for it. It's one of my two 'pissed off' icons :)
Feel free to have alook through my icons and nick any you want.

I don't normally rant as I might offend friends that I wouldn't want to offend...

From:

valkyriekaren.livejournal.com

a) a way of keeping criminals 'off the streets' and preventing them committing further crime;
b) a place in which to punish people;
c) incarceration as inherent punishment (i.e. restriction of movement, liberties)

in your opinion?

From:

d) All of the above...

Ideally I would like to see all animals liberated from the cruel and terrible animal testing centres around the country (Huntingdon anyone) and have them replaced by criminals.
That way they will finally be useful to society.
We should encourage and emulate countries that take a progressive stance towards making criminals useful in society again (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2006/07/06/1671272-cp.html)...

From:

As for state sanctioned murder - well, that's quite repulsive really.

From:

In my opinion it's really no different to putting down a rabid dog...

From:

lol again I agree. richard rants about this all the time in this vain.

we think that they should be put into an arena or abadonned town cordoned off, with TV cameras everywhere, and used for pay per view reality TV :P

From:

Which I think is a fantastic idea on many levels although I don't condone crass brutality and violence.
I also suspect that might desensitise people to violence, but on the whole I do like the idea...
Mmmm, chainsaws...

From:

maybe we could start a government, we'd clear up liverpool in no time, play time :P

From:

hear hear, I think they forfit their human rights by getting banged up the first place.

From:

pelicanzed.livejournal.com

Point taken (if not necessarily agreed with), but what about people who end up in jail when they shouldn't be?

From:

You're absolutely right that that's a potential hazard, but I feel it's important to point out that I'm here only arguing the penal system not the judiciary.

To help prevent false positives, I propose tagging everyone so that when a crime is committed, we can rule out people who weren't in the area...

From:

the-elephant.livejournal.com

There are some basic human rights that should never be denied to anyone. Life, dignity, respect for one's being.

The default human has many more rights - the right to travel freely, for one. Criminals (justly!) lose this right, along with a host of other rights.

This doesn't mean that they should be tossed in a pit like human garbage to be gang-raped every day of their sentence, though. That kind of abuse should never be inflicted on ANYONE.

From: